At the end of November 2023, Big Brother Watch (BBW), the civil liberties and privacy campaigning organisation, released what they called a “groundbreaking new report” exploring “international Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC) projects and their severe impact on privacy, surveillance, and financial exclusion.” I read the report to see if it aligns with my view of CBDCs and also to see what new information it had to offer.
Thanks Rusere, this is a great article to get me started on delving into this issue! It is refreshingly non-overly-fearmongerly and I really like that way you've drawn from a liberal lobby paper, and critique their stance (I agree, it's weak!)
Firstly, can you recommend some resources to understand the basics of CBDC? I only have a vague understanding of the actual mechanics of it.
Acquiring CBDC will be made very easy. If, based on statements by BoE, retail banks administer them on behalf of the central bank, your bank will make a digital "wallet" available to you via an app or online banking and encourage you to transfer funds from your existing accounts into the CBDC and to then start using the 'tokens' in your CBDC to spend. It is really just an extension of the current payment system but with super-enhanced tracking and ID functionality. In this sense, it is anything but a 'currency', unlike say Bitcoin, which is a real digital currency whose price fluctuates against other currencies.
If it would take the form you describe, that of digitally-enhanced money, that is, essentially our money with extra digital features, how would its price not fluctuate against other currencies?
Don't think of CBDC as a currency. It's a payment system, in the same way that your credit or debit card is a payment system. Money (whichever currency is used in your locality) will be transferred from your existing bank accounts to a "digital wallet", which is fancy language for a CBDC account. It's a transfer of an existing currency from one payment platform to another. In the UK people would hold sterling denominated CBDCs and yes, the value of that CBDC would change in relation to other currencies simply because the Pound is changing in relation to other currencies. But the CBDC itself is not a currency. The last 'C' in CBDC is a massive misnomer which has led people to believe it is more than what it really is - namely a payment system. Bitcoin on the other hand can really be said to be a currency. It has its own value which is not tied to an existing currency.
Although I don't agree at all with her proposed solutions, I thought you might be interested in where Whitney Webb mentions the form she expects the CBDC payment platform will take in the US, at 27:30 in
Thanks for your work on this. I think it's crucial for us to understand it.
I think our chances at resisting the cbdc agenda depend on how well we can get info into the public about the dangers of medical mandates and the flaws in the climate change narrative. More people need to know more about how negative these things are for our health and very lives. One problem is that the populist right is very offputting to many, literally driving progressive-minded workers TOWARDS the govt, and undermines the seriousness of the 4IR issues we face.
I think it's really important that we organise separately from the populist right and libertarian opposition to control mechanisms, because these forces seem to be very motivated by an objection to 'big government' i.e. to social spending, and to paying tax, implying these things are 'communist'. We do need to fight to defend financial and digital privacy, but our struggles also need to be over what tax gets spent on, not helping small to medium businesses avoid tax!!
This Fox News video perfectly encapsulates the right populist framing of the dangers of digital financial control by the state in relation to, in this example, climate change targets (as well as the debunked ‘Chinese social credit system’ bogeyman). She mentions the govt will take control of the banks. Does this seem rather ludicrous to you? Or at least highly unlikely?
I agree with Fox News' general characterisation of the threat. However, I do not agree with the guest speaker's prediction that banks will be eliminated leaving only the Fed/other central banks standing. Many smaller banks will probably be eliminated by a process of consolidation but the big banks, who are actually part of a cartel that owns the Fed, would remain (having acquired the smaller entities) and administer CBDCs on behalf of the Fed. As for China...well, China is the Beta testing ground for CBDCs. They're way ahead of everyone else and the intention is for the West to replicate their model. I'm not sure what you mean by the "debunked Chinese social credit system"? I do believe that China has levels of social control that the West is trying to emulate.
Thanks for that. I'm convinced your prediction is much more realistic and grounded! I think the Right put it that way so they can fearmonger about 'communism' and 'big government'.
In terms of China, I follow some sources to learn the truth in the face of outlandish Western lies and myths. Myths that are utilised by both the mainsteam West and the right populists for overlapping but distinct reasons. I don't necessarily agree with all these sources' politics but they are a godsend for understanding real China.
Kai Wong, @Kai_Wong_CN on X, a Chinese-Canadian-Chinese guy is also great to follow. Western populations are much more censored and controlled than the Chinese.
Sorry but I don't find the article that debunks the Chinese SCS to be very convincing. Given how closed Chinese society is, I accept that there will be a degree of contention in relation to the existence of a Chinese SCS and precisely how effective it is but, given all the reports I've seen in both MSM and alt-media, I'm not prepared to abandon the idea that China has a SCS on the basis of that piece which seems light on evidence. I'll need more convincing.
First hand accounts of people who have lived there and experienced it. I recall the first time I learnt about it was through people in China speaking about it, albeit not in condemnatory terms. They were just saying matter-of-factly that's how it was working. The points system was described in detail. Now, they could have been actors staging anti-China agit prop. I don't know. In 2021 Xi offered to help the West build their own social credit systems using Chinese technology. Why would he do that? That was reported in MSM so, again, that could have been a lie. I don't know. I guess I've seen so many reports from so many different sources that seem to confirm what's going on there. And I guess your response to that would be: "that's exactly how propaganda works! Repeat the lie often enough and it becomes truth." I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong, but the quality of evidence to debunk this potential lie is going to have to be better than the link you sent.
Excellent as always 🙏🏽
Thank you :)
Thanks Rusere, this is a great article to get me started on delving into this issue! It is refreshingly non-overly-fearmongerly and I really like that way you've drawn from a liberal lobby paper, and critique their stance (I agree, it's weak!)
Firstly, can you recommend some resources to understand the basics of CBDC? I only have a vague understanding of the actual mechanics of it.
This BBW explainer is not a bad start to understand basics, despite their feeble recommendation for fighting back:
https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/campaigns/no-spycoin/#WHATISCBDC
Thanks. I’ve started exploring that website. When I’m done, I’ll post a series of comments and questions here.
I want to know things like how one would actually acquire CBDC?
Acquiring CBDC will be made very easy. If, based on statements by BoE, retail banks administer them on behalf of the central bank, your bank will make a digital "wallet" available to you via an app or online banking and encourage you to transfer funds from your existing accounts into the CBDC and to then start using the 'tokens' in your CBDC to spend. It is really just an extension of the current payment system but with super-enhanced tracking and ID functionality. In this sense, it is anything but a 'currency', unlike say Bitcoin, which is a real digital currency whose price fluctuates against other currencies.
Thanks. This is not clear to me:
If it would take the form you describe, that of digitally-enhanced money, that is, essentially our money with extra digital features, how would its price not fluctuate against other currencies?
Don't think of CBDC as a currency. It's a payment system, in the same way that your credit or debit card is a payment system. Money (whichever currency is used in your locality) will be transferred from your existing bank accounts to a "digital wallet", which is fancy language for a CBDC account. It's a transfer of an existing currency from one payment platform to another. In the UK people would hold sterling denominated CBDCs and yes, the value of that CBDC would change in relation to other currencies simply because the Pound is changing in relation to other currencies. But the CBDC itself is not a currency. The last 'C' in CBDC is a massive misnomer which has led people to believe it is more than what it really is - namely a payment system. Bitcoin on the other hand can really be said to be a currency. It has its own value which is not tied to an existing currency.
Thanks! This is great and helps me understand what it is, and what it is not. Hooray!
We need to give it a clearer name that better encapsulates what it is. Perhaps someone already has?
Although I don't agree at all with her proposed solutions, I thought you might be interested in where Whitney Webb mentions the form she expects the CBDC payment platform will take in the US, at 27:30 in
oops I forgot to include the link https://youtu.be/uVUZZ5xSR5w?si=mZWNYN90AMNnS7de
Thanks for your work on this. I think it's crucial for us to understand it.
I think our chances at resisting the cbdc agenda depend on how well we can get info into the public about the dangers of medical mandates and the flaws in the climate change narrative. More people need to know more about how negative these things are for our health and very lives. One problem is that the populist right is very offputting to many, literally driving progressive-minded workers TOWARDS the govt, and undermines the seriousness of the 4IR issues we face.
I think it's really important that we organise separately from the populist right and libertarian opposition to control mechanisms, because these forces seem to be very motivated by an objection to 'big government' i.e. to social spending, and to paying tax, implying these things are 'communist'. We do need to fight to defend financial and digital privacy, but our struggles also need to be over what tax gets spent on, not helping small to medium businesses avoid tax!!
What are your thoughts on this Rusere? https://youtu.be/Z1rpgOqly6Y?si=zv9YtjbDlGKAfwmE
This Fox News video perfectly encapsulates the right populist framing of the dangers of digital financial control by the state in relation to, in this example, climate change targets (as well as the debunked ‘Chinese social credit system’ bogeyman). She mentions the govt will take control of the banks. Does this seem rather ludicrous to you? Or at least highly unlikely?
I agree with Fox News' general characterisation of the threat. However, I do not agree with the guest speaker's prediction that banks will be eliminated leaving only the Fed/other central banks standing. Many smaller banks will probably be eliminated by a process of consolidation but the big banks, who are actually part of a cartel that owns the Fed, would remain (having acquired the smaller entities) and administer CBDCs on behalf of the Fed. As for China...well, China is the Beta testing ground for CBDCs. They're way ahead of everyone else and the intention is for the West to replicate their model. I'm not sure what you mean by the "debunked Chinese social credit system"? I do believe that China has levels of social control that the West is trying to emulate.
Thanks for that. I'm convinced your prediction is much more realistic and grounded! I think the Right put it that way so they can fearmonger about 'communism' and 'big government'.
In terms of China, I follow some sources to learn the truth in the face of outlandish Western lies and myths. Myths that are utilised by both the mainsteam West and the right populists for overlapping but distinct reasons. I don't necessarily agree with all these sources' politics but they are a godsend for understanding real China.
This article debunks the social credit system: https://open.substack.com/pub/austrianchina/p/the-chinese-social-credit-system-revisited?r=eosnk&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Kai Wong, @Kai_Wong_CN on X, a Chinese-Canadian-Chinese guy is also great to follow. Western populations are much more censored and controlled than the Chinese.
Sorry but I don't find the article that debunks the Chinese SCS to be very convincing. Given how closed Chinese society is, I accept that there will be a degree of contention in relation to the existence of a Chinese SCS and precisely how effective it is but, given all the reports I've seen in both MSM and alt-media, I'm not prepared to abandon the idea that China has a SCS on the basis of that piece which seems light on evidence. I'll need more convincing.
If we approach it from another angle, where is the evidence for a SCS in China?
First hand accounts of people who have lived there and experienced it. I recall the first time I learnt about it was through people in China speaking about it, albeit not in condemnatory terms. They were just saying matter-of-factly that's how it was working. The points system was described in detail. Now, they could have been actors staging anti-China agit prop. I don't know. In 2021 Xi offered to help the West build their own social credit systems using Chinese technology. Why would he do that? That was reported in MSM so, again, that could have been a lie. I don't know. I guess I've seen so many reports from so many different sources that seem to confirm what's going on there. And I guess your response to that would be: "that's exactly how propaganda works! Repeat the lie often enough and it becomes truth." I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong, but the quality of evidence to debunk this potential lie is going to have to be better than the link you sent.
Aarghhh - so that's BBW out the window. I've even got their sticker on my laptop. Never put stickers on laptops.
Lol !